I'm on TRT

[1standarduser**]

Think I should see about TRT? And is any of it covered under insurance?

I don't have insurance, but I have been told most ghetto insurance companies will try to get out of it.
That said, I have a friend that works for Boeing, and they cover the blood work and part of the drugs.

For TRT, you really can't tell until you get blood work.
Pain pills and lack of sleep does reduce your levels.
Questions to ask yourself are:
- is your dick softer, and up less frequently?
- do you feel tired all the time, even when you do get a full nights sleep?
- are you losing muscle and/or gaining fat with the same diet and exercise?
I looked at Testims' product sheet and answered yes to most of the questions they had.

Before Clomid, I was taking Vicoden daily. I still take them but not every day, and at half the dose.
Don't know which one is better for my liver, but I feel way better mentally and physically taking Clomid than Vicoden.

 

[1standarduser**]

Hcg comes to.mind. I've seen references to its use as an attempt to increase natural production prior to the administering of testosterone. And no I don't have the links to the papers. Clomid just doesn't seem like an effect long term solution.

I would like to know Your E2 numbers both prior to therapy and during treatment. If your not getting it checked I'd like to know the reasoning for the lack of testing if possible. Considering the drug your using effects e2.

I have considered HCG as well.
If possible though, I'd like to avoid taking injections for as long as possible.
It seems fairly popular to take home shots to have EOD and either inject or use creams for T.
When my low dose Clomid stops producing results, which I'm sure it will at some point, I'll have to be more aggressive.

Should be getting labs done at the end of this month.
I'll post up my way before (if I can find 'em), my ones from a couple months back, and my new results. Actually don't remember if E was on there, so if it was it must not have been out of range or it'd have a warning on it.

 

[nhbfan8080]

On the first point, I know for a fact that my sheet clearly shows those above 900 get a warning, so I'm not sure how you can argue against something that is obvious.

To the 2nd point:
Maybe I'm wrong on this...
To normalize T for somebody with high levels, you'd really just add more T and/or take Clomid?
It's possible.. could be that adding more testosterone to somebody over the limits would in fact lower their levels over time since they'd basically stop producing it themselves at some point?
If this is in fact possible, it sounds risky but then again, I've never known anybody with too high of T, nor am I a doctor.

The troll never provided any evidence of this, but I'd be interested in reading if you could please provide a link.

The 'troll' provided a link containing an equal or better reference vs yours showing levels of 1200 may be considered normal and he never stated that testosterone levels can never be too high. He also commented that it said that different labs may have diff normal ranges - hint. Also total testosterone is not the sole clinical criteria of hypo/hypergonadism since test can be bound and be inactive.

You said that "I've never known anybody with too high of T" but in post #63 you stated

From personal experience, I knew a middle aged woman with too high of testosterone that needed medical attention. I also knew a teenager with a disease that caused hypergonadism......

And the 'troll' never stated that people with 'too high' T require test injections as you state in post #71

B) To get your levels down from something over 900, it would require a different type of therapy. (or are you still thinking that injecting testosterone would normalize people with high test, just like it does for people with low test.)

Your statement about high test people living statistically shorter lives, behaving irrationally, abandoning their children etc.. I feel are resting on weak and biased science leading out of the notion of genetic determinism. Data also shows that high T people live longer lives and more recent studies show that low T causes plumbing problems with the prostate.

You're comments about opiates and vicodin rings a bell. Opiods/opiate (which is in vicodin) affects test levels adversely. Talk to your doc about vicodin and your blues or better yet see an endoc.

 

[nhbfan8080]

The wiki page for hydrocodone (compounded into vicodin) states that it severely decreases test levels. And here you are fussing over sleeping with the kids killing your libido.

 

[1standarduser**]

The wiki page for hydrocodone (compounded into vicodin) states that it severely decreases test levels.

This has been covered already, and is the reason I have reduced the use of said drug significantly. My doc was prescribing 30mg per day. I can get by on that per week now. I haven't been able to find good studies for showing how much opiates will cause how much decrease in Testosterone. I'd be extremely interested in reading about that though, if you have seen any studies on it.

I first became aware of the magnitude of the problem after seeing the Testim brochure showing that long term opiate usage was the single highest risk (at least on their sheet) for either low sexual drive or testosterone (I don't remember which one specifically, but they are linked).

Should be noted one of my family members is a long term opiate addict. He was on the illegal ones for years and is now on a very high dose of morphine daily. His T levels are also low. I've never done the illegal ones, but I'd assume those decrease your levels even more rapidly than ones made at a pharmacy.

To your comment about not knowing anybody with too high of T, you are absolutely correct. I posted that without thinking of those people. Unfortunately, I don't know the treatment they received. The kid I didn't know very well, but the lady I can ask about next time I see her.
It was just an assumption that the treatment was different from the one I did, considering they had basically the opposite problem.

I still haven't seen any contrary evidence to the assertion that high T would require a different therapy to having low T. It seems logically wrong to use the same treatment. Then again, I'm no doctor and I'll admit that some herbs that are purported to both raise and lower levels that are out of whack for a number of problems.
I can ask my doctor next time I see him if he has dealt with a case of high T, and what the solution was.

 

[SherTiger1]

All arguments aside, assuming 900 is a high level yet within nornal range, does this mean that if you legitimately needed TRT, you're allowed to get boosted up to 900?

However about for pro athletes? Are they allowed to get up to the upper end of what is normal?

I just wasn't sure how it works particularly in sports... Can they justify using TRT to get from 500 to 900 because despite 500 being normal, it allows them to compete on the same level as other natural athletes with 900?

 

[1standarduser**]

All arguments aside, assuming 900 is a high level yet within nornal range, does this mean that if you legitimately needed TRT, you're allowed to get boosted up to 900?

However about for pro athletes? Are they allowed to get up to the upper end of what is normal?

I just wasn't sure how it works particularly in sports... Can they justify using TRT to get from 500 to 900 because despite 500 being normal, it allows them to compete on the same level as other natural athletes with 900?

For most pro sports, Testosterone injections are illegal in any form.
Basically TRT is illegal in main stream sports, olympics, etc.

For MMA, it's different. But people with a level of 500 would still not be allowed to increase their Test levels since they are not deficient.
Also, the drug tests I believe measure your Test/Est ratio, hence Sonnen getting popped for being about 17:1 when a normal person would be about 1:1.

About raising your levels to 900 if you are not an athlete.
If your doctor is willing to raise them that high, then yes you can.
I have heard of doctors purposefully raising people's levels all the way up to 1000 actually, and as far as I've seen the side effects such as prostate cancer are limited when monitored by a doctor.

My older friend got on cream, and for him he had side effects at a way lower level than 900. He got up to I think 500, but he said he was quicker to anger, specifically road rage and didn't like the side effects.
Every body is different. He feels great at 400 or less. Athletes may feel they need a lot more. For me? I actually don't know what levels I like because I haven't yet gotten A) enough follow up tests B) any side effects from too much

I'll make a new thread after I get the latest results in and compare them for anybody that is interested.

 

[SherTiger1]

For most pro sports, Testosterone injections are illegal in any form.
Basically TRT is illegal in main stream sports, olympics, etc.

For MMA, it's different. But people with a level of 500 would still not be allowed to increase their Test levels since they are not deficient.
Also, the drug tests I believe measure your Test/Est ratio, hence Sonnen getting popped for being about 17:1 when a normal person would be about 1:1.

About raising your levels to 900 if you are not an athlete.
If your doctor is willing to raise them that high, then yes you can.
I have heard of doctors purposefully raising people's levels all the way up to 1000 actually, and as far as I've seen the side effects such as prostate cancer are limited when monitored by a doctor.

My older friend got on cream, and for him he had side effects at a way lower level than 900. He got up to I think 500, but he said he was quicker to anger, specifically road rage and didn't like the side effects.
Every body is different. He feels great at 400 or less. Athletes may feel they need a lot more. For me? I actually don't know what levels I like because I haven't yet gotten A) enough follow up tests B) any side effects from too much

I'll make a new thread after I get the latest results in and compare them for anybody that is interested.

Thanks, I'm not looking into getting some for myself but just quite interested in knowing more about the topic.

Regarding the athlete thing, I wonder what they are allowed to get up to if they were initally deficient.

Say if they had 200 for whatever reason (age, too much cutting, past drug abuse, genetics) then end up with 900-1000, it would seem that they now have a significant unfair advantage over anyone who naturally has only 400-500 yet is not allowed any TRT.

 

[MIDMOBOX]

Although I'm sure thus will.spark some arguments there is some anecdotal evidence that such things as athletic performance and amount of muscle.mass are not greatly dif when test values are within normal.ranges. in other words there isn't much if any advantage to.having a 500 score or a.900. However exact results would be.almost impossible to calculate since indivual body chemistry, lifestyle, diet, training would need to be identical. And obtaining a sample.size large.enough would be.a logistical nightmare.

 

[nhbfan8080]

This has been covered already, and is the reason I have reduced the use of said drug significantly. My doc was prescribing 30mg per day. I can get by on that per week now. I haven't been able to find good studies for showing how much opiates will cause how much decrease in Testosterone. I'd be extremely interested in reading about that though, if you have seen any studies on it.

Since vicodin is so severe on test levels I wouldn't even bother and look for alternatives instead since you said you could get by with a lot less.
From what I gather therapeutic testosterone injections for people like yourself is being deprecated in favour of other treatments because all it would do is prolong the problem of low testosterone production (the body will sense the extra T and make adjustments downward).

I still haven't seen any contrary evidence to the assertion that high T would require a different therapy to having low T. It seems logically wrong to use the same treatment. Then again, I'm no doctor and I'll admit that some herbs that are purported to both raise and lower levels that are out of whack for a number of problems.
I can ask my doctor next time I see him if he has dealt with a case of high T, and what the solution was.

I repeat that I don't know who made the assertion but it wasn't me nor the 'troll'.

 

[supdudexxx]

I don't have insurance, but I have been told most ghetto insurance companies will try to get out of it.
That said, I have a friend that works for Boeing, and they cover the blood work and part of the drugs.

For TRT, you really can't tell until you get blood work.
Pain pills and lack of sleep does reduce your levels.
Questions to ask yourself are:
- is your dick softer, and up less frequently?
- do you feel tired all the time, even when you do get a full nights sleep?
- are you losing muscle and/or gaining fat with the same diet and exercise?
I looked at Testims' product sheet and answered yes to most of the questions they had.

My ghetto insurance won't even bother testing me even though I have all of these symptoms. In the meantime, I'm getting on some OTC test boosters on the small chance they will help.

 

[Pathogenic]

My ghetto insurance won't even bother testing me even though I have all of these symptoms. In the meantime, I'm getting on some OTC test boosters on the small chance they will help.

They won't work. Don't waste your time. If your insurance doesn't cover it, then save the money that you use to buy OTC T boosters and buy the testosterone test yourself.

However, sometimes your insurance will cover it if your doctor strongly recommends it. I'd suggest reporting low T symptoms to him/her. Say that your symptoms having a significant impact on your life, and specifically that they are negatively impacting your performance at work and in the bedroom.

 

[mtruitt76]

I still haven't seen any contrary evidence to the assertion that high T would require a different therapy to having low T. It seems logically wrong to use the same treatment. Then again, I'm no doctor and I'll admit that some herbs that are purported to both raise and lower levels that are out of whack for a number of problems.
I can ask my doctor next time I see him if he has dealt with a case of high T, and what the solution was.

No on has said that the same protocol would be used to lower T as is used to raise T, I don't get why you keep bringing this back up. The issue at dispute was what level constituted abnormally high T and if anyone is ever actually treated for high T

All arguments aside, assuming 900 is a high level yet within nornal range, does this mean that if you legitimately needed TRT, you're allowed to get boosted up to 900?

However about for pro athletes? Are they allowed to get up to the upper end of what is normal?

I just wasn't sure how it works particularly in sports... Can they justify using TRT to get from 500 to 900 because despite 500 being normal, it allows them to compete on the same level as other natural athletes with 900?

What level you T is boosted to depends on where you are getting treatment. Hormon replacement clinics will typically boost you numbers until you are feeling good. This may be 1200 or it might be 1400. They will also give people treatment to people whose initial test numbers are higher. I don't know about 500, but they will definitely treat you if you are in the 300-400 range, and some would even give treatment if you are in the 500 range if you report your symptoms as being bad.

 

[1standarduser**]

My ghetto insurance won't even bother testing me even though I have all of these symptoms. In the meantime, I'm getting on some OTC test boosters on the small chance they will help.

OTC boosters did almost nothing for me personally. I tried the lot.

When I originally got a blood test, they tricked me into getting EVERYTHING checked.
The bill was almost $600.

Turns out, if I just check what's important for me such as cholesterol, test, and est, then it's only about $200 at the place I went to.

Getting blood work is important. It's rare for a young, healthy appearing person to be really low in Testosterone, and it may be you have a completely different problem that will show up and could be easily fixed by diet or medications.

 

[1standarduser**]

Update:

I have bloodwork being done tomorrow morning at 9am.
Checking cholesterol, test free, all test, and estrogen.

My last half a pill I took Tuesday the 21st morning, test is exactly 72hrs later.

If my levels are still good 3 days later, I'm going to switch my dosage to just 1 pill per week (half Tuesday, half Friday). Trying to take the minimum dose possible that will still make me feel normal. If feeling normal is a level of only 350 (random example), then that's fine. Everyone has a different level they are comfortable with.
Since it's such a low dose, I'll probably just stay on Clomid long term. No reason to switch up to more aggressive therapy until it's necessary.

 

[1standarduser**]

Holy shit, great results from just a very small dose!
Think I should make a whole new thread for this.

Edit
I need to go home and check my last tests so I can compare them accurately for you guys, but here's the general idea:

Cholesterol was high. Now within normal range without any change in diet. I am not taking statins, which my doctor was trying to push on me.

Estrogen is normal, but a little high on the normal side. Probably won't take that test again as it's $185 before discount just for that added. To compare, cholesterol is $5.

Cliffs:
Clomid use of just 50 - 75mg a week is enough to more than DOUBLE my previous T levels, lower cholesterol, give me a harder erection and make me feel more awake.

 

[Pathogenic]

Glad to see it's working for you!

 

[Wariowokecancel]

As a side-note:

TRT cream in the US -> $300 a month <- no insurance, not paid by government, bought in a pharmacy at a market rate

TRT cream in Europe -> $60 a month <- no insurance, not paid by government, bought in a pharmacy at a market rate

How is this possible.

 

[hardheart]

As a side-note:

TRT cream in the US -> $300 a month <- no insurance, not paid by government, bought in a pharmacy at a market rate

TRT cream in Europe -> $60 a month <- no insurance, not paid by government, bought in a pharmacy at a market rate

How is this possible.

In most EU countries you can purchase T products OTP (Over the Pharmacy, like Sudafed here in the US) and they are legal to own/carry in personal amounts. In the US you'll do more jail time if you're caught with steroids (and no prescription) than if get caught with an illegal handgun.

Also, why on earth would you use T cream when injections are 10x better and half the price (at Pharmacy rates)?

 

[1standarduser**]

Also, why on earth would you use T cream?

Some people don't like shooting up their drugs.