What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before?

[thugpoet]

Having to accept death as a tentative outcome of your endeavor is pretty different. Any sports psychologist would agree. This is why the NFL's cover-up of brain injuries is such a huge thing. Players were actively being deceived about the consequences of their pursuit. And regardless of the fact that American Football has more traumatic head injuries, Combat Sports still carry the aura of being unnecessarily brutal in nature and having the highest risk of severe reduction of quality of life.

thug - I think the problem is you're speaking relatively. TO Tiger the pressure is the same. Many athletes would suggest the same thing, but's just not. If you want them to feel the same amount of pressure then stand close to them and tell them every time they fuck up you get to punch or kick them in the face, and you know HOW to. Then ask them how that same situation feels. I think they'll agree there's a variance:

I disagree.

The high of winning and losing is the same across every level of sport.

The pressure I felt playing basketball was the same pressure I felt doing Bjj tournaments.

I don't believe boxing is any harder or tougher than any other sport.

Even if boxing is some how tougher to deal with then let's say tennis that still doesn't discredit the tennis coach turned boxing coach from being a good coach. Which is the point I have been trying to drive home.

 

[Sinister]

Even BJJ doesn't carry the same spectre of death and destruction. BJJ guys like to think it does, but it doesn't. And the great BJJ instructors know that, it's largely a passive art designed to subdue. Striking arts aren't designed merely to subdue, but specifically to PUNISH, to inflict damage and keep inflicting it until the opponent capitulates or is rendered unable to continue. And all this in front of an audience screaming for blood. Not points, not decisions, blood, and pain.

I've played the team Sports, I've fought, it's not the same. Boxers and many high-level football players who take hits tend to be unrealistic about themselves, nearly or fully delusional. That's the compensation for facing death, it's beyond ego or arrogance. Many of them can only proceed with the notion in tact that they CANNOT be hurt, which is absurd. But without that they become normal. Does that happen in other Sports? Yes, but it's not nearly as common.

As for the notion of the coach, no it doesn't mean they can't be a good coach. Of course. But I do still think every coach should stare that in the face themselves, to become a GREAT coach.

 

[kenpeters8]

This is what Damien Trainor has to say about coaches that never fought. I agree with his statements.

https://muaythaiauthority.com/social-media-fighters/

"You’re also going to have those guys that say that you don’t need to fight to coach, but I think you do. Why must we as Americans fast track it? In Thailand how many gyms do you run across where the pad holder or head trainer has never fought? Or has only had amateur fights? I have been to a lot of gyms and I have never seen it. How the F you going to be able to truly talk me down from my level of fear if I’m a first time fighter getting ready to step in there with the possibility of having elbows slice me up like I’ve been smacked by Freddy Krueger. If I am in a fight and I’m in the third round and I am getting my ass whooped then I come back to the corner and you are telling me how to act. If you’ve never fought I am going to turn around to you and say, “wait a minute, get the hell out of here you’ve never been under this pressure so you don’t know what I’m going through. You’re no different than the guy in row 3 seat A.”

Good find. Although he should also tell people not to underestimate anyone. Even if his opponent's coach never fought before, still don't underestimate that opponent. I mentioned this already, I know a guy that talked shit about his opponent before a fight, telling him he's gonna whoop his ass because he trains under world Muay Thai champions, and his opponent's coach never fought before. That shit talker guy ended up getting his ass knocked the fuck out by his opponent with the coach who never fought before. That was pretty damn hilarious. I actually know that guy personally and he's still a big mouth shit talker, he's retired at least 8 years ago and he has his own gym now. Everytime when he talk shit about coaches that never fought before are now opening gyms left and right around the corner, someone reminded him that his ass got knocked out in a pro Muay Thai fight by a guy with a coach that never fought before. And he quickly change the subject and shut the fuck up. Hahaha.

 

[DoctorTaco]

what is CTE? Crazier Than Ever?

cant stop crazy!

 

[Azam]

Having to accept death as a tentative outcome of your endeavor is pretty different. Any sports psychologist would agree. This is why the NFL's cover-up of brain injuries is such a huge thing. Players were actively being deceived about the consequences of their pursuit. And regardless of the fact that American Football has more traumatic head injuries, Combat Sports still carry the aura of being unnecessarily brutal in nature and having the highest risk of severe reduction of quality of life.

thug - I think the problem is you're speaking relatively. TO Tiger the pressure is the same. Many athletes would suggest the same thing, but's just not. If you want them to feel the same amount of pressure then stand close to them and tell them every time they fuck up you get to punch or kick them in the face, and you know HOW to. Then ask them how that same situation feels. I think they'll agree there's a variance:

Death is a natural outcome regardless of wherever you are. Sure in a boxing ring or an MT ring - there is a greater degree of risk than say golf. The pressure like you said is a bit different because of the greater risk of potentially not walking out of that ring (than in comparison to golf).

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the mental pressure in boxing is a scale above that of golf because it feels like that's what you're insinuating (correct me if I'm wrong). If that were the case boxers or anyone with professional combat sports experience would easily be able to handle the mental pressure in any other sport (with less pressure). I think that's just empirically not true.

The pressures in combat sports and other sports are just different. I think it's logically wrong to try to separate experiences that are unique to their respective sports to begin with.

Technically speaking loggers in the US have the highest incidence of death compared to any other type of job (combat sports included). Does that make the mental pressure of boxers or combat sports athletes any less valid than say your average American logger? Does that mean that loggers have to deal with pressure that the average combat athlete doesn't have to?

This is why I think it's erroneous to try to quantify pressure like you have. Everyone has their own mental pressure doing whatever they do - there is nothing unique about the mental pressure in combat sports. It's just different.

I know that this in reference to being a good striking coach and having at least fought once so you can relate & understand the mental pressure of those that you will have to teach. I'll cover my thoughts in a post below.

 

[shincheckin]

BJJ competition doenst compare to boxing. When it hurts you tap. Yes you can get injured or even a limb broken if the guy doesnt stop, but its not the same. One of the reasons why BJJ is so much more popular than boxing. Anyone can do BJJ, not anyone can box. It takes a different type of kid to be willing to box vs doing BJJ. I see it all the time, specifically since I coach at a BJJ gym. You got these kids that are good at BJJ that cry when they get punched in the face. can this kid fight, no he cannot.

You dont play boxing like you play ice hockey. you fight boxing and you play other sports, such as ice hockey for example. One could argue that ice hockey is a very rough sport with a chance for injury and they would be correct it is.......why did I use Ice Hockey? Becuase I used to play Ice Hockey, matter a fact, I was knocked out playing Ice Hockey, despite being knocked out playing ice hockey, how i felt before a hockey game vs how i feel before a fight cannot even compare.

 

[shincheckin]

you play sports, you dont play fighting.

you cannot compare sports that are played to fighting

I played checkers once and it felt the same as I did when I played baseball. So fighting must be the same.

 

[Sinister]

Azam - I don't see how having to accept mortality vs. not isn't a scale above. Sure Death is all around us, but there's nothing forcing you to cope with it each time you do the thing you want to do. It's easy to be Zen if you're not consistently in front of a gun, so to speak.

Keep in mind that I also just said that a VERY high percentage of combat sports athletes are straight up delusional about their invulnerability. You know what it is about other Sports they can't handle? Not being perfect. It's actually highly logical to for them to be different, if they were the same, then as you say, any athlete should be able to handle the pressures of any Sport. They can't BECAUSE how you have to handle each Sport is different. The coping mechanisms are different. Theres a huge difference between literal threats and virtual threats, immediate consequences vs. Delayed ones, physical ruin vs. Financial (and in boxing and football, it's often both together).

And if loggers have that much a higher risk of death than boxers then their confrontation of mortality is more visceral, a bigger threat. So yes, it is a bit more intense. There's no folly in admitting so, and I'd bet my favorite hat that many boxers would rather box because they don't want to die doing some shit like logging.

 

[Azam]

Personally my thoughts are - you don't necessarily need to have fight experience to be a good striking coach.

I think fight experience is only important when you want to make your students compete. Then some sort of fight experience is necessary so you can help your students navigate during preparations for an exhibition, amateur or professional fight. But I wouldn't say that this is an ironclad rule - as far as I know Angelo Dundee had no fight experience. Maybe @Sinister could chime in on that - I'm not to sure.

I do not think it is necessary however to teach self defense though.

Also from what I've seen it seems like the smartest coaches aren't always best fighters and some don't have any fight experience at all.

 

[Azam]

you play sports, you dont play fighting.

you cannot compare sports that are played to fighting

I played checkers once and it felt the same as I did when I played baseball. So fighting must be the same.

Anything with rules is a game though. That's the definition of a game: "a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules." Competition fighting is a game - just one with potentially bad consequences to your health.

That's my point. It's hard to quantify pressure and I think it's best not to - as pressure is a hard thing to quantify. There's no universal scale to grade it with.

 

[Sinister]

Personally my thoughts are - you don't necessarily need to have fight experience to be a good striking coach.

I think fight experience is only important when you want to make your students compete. Then some sort of fight experience is necessary so you can help your students navigate during preparations for an exhibition, amateur or professional fight. But I wouldn't say that this is an ironclad rule - as far as I know Angelo Dundee had no fight experience. Maybe @Sinister could chime in on that - I'm not to sure.

I do not think it is necessary however to teach self defense though.

Also from what I've seen it seems like the smartest coaches aren't always best fighters and some don't have any fight experience at all.

Dundee was a great cornerman, he didn't build fighters from the ground up. Most of the fighters he's renowned for training were already built, AND had other input in the gym.

 

[Sinister]

Anything with rules is a game though. That's the definition of a game: "a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules." Competition fighting is a game - just one with potentially bad consequences to your health.

That's my point. It's hard to quantify pressure and I think it's best not to - as pressure is a hard thing to quantify. There's no universal scale to grade it with.

Pressure doesn't need to be quantified, it needs to be addressed, adjusted to, prepared for. According to the intensity of said pressure. And in order to do that you have to recognize the scale of it. Asking someone to face the visceral threat of literally being beaten into submission is asking a lot, and it's different than asking them to win points. Which is alright to say.

 

[Azam]

Azam - I don't see how having to accept mortality vs. not isn't a scale above. Sure Death is all around us, but there's nothing forcing you to cope with it each time you do the thing you want to do. It's easy to be Zen if you're not consistently in front of a gun, so to speak.

Keep in mind that I also just said that a VERY high percentage of combat sports athletes are straight up delusional about their invulnerability. You know what it is about other Sports they can't handle? Not being perfect. It's actually highly logical to for them to be different, if they were the same, then as you say, any athlete should be able to handle the pressures of any Sport. They can't BECAUSE how you have to handle each Sport is different. The coping mechanisms are different. Theres a huge difference between literal threats and virtual threats, immediate consequences vs. Delayed ones, physical ruin vs. Financial (and in boxing and football, it's often both together).

And if loggers have that much a higher risk of death than boxers then their confrontation of mortality is more visceral, a bigger threat. So yes, it is a bit more intense. There's no folly in admitting so, and I'd bet my favorite hat that many boxers would rather box because they don't want to die doing some shit like logging.

But we are consistently in-front of a gun so to speak. It's not a visceral thing because we ignore it and get on with life. I mean in all likelihood we're more likely to die outside a ring than in it. The death of Norifumi Yamamoto (rip) recently comes to mind. Most of the time we don't feel the pressure of it because we get on with life.

Those that are confronted with it - how do you grade their mental pressure with someone for example boxing for a living? You see what I'm trying to get at.

That's the point I'm making though. It's hard to categorize pressure because like you said coping mechanisms are different & you have literal/virtual/visceral considerations and short/long term consequences as well as physical/financial etc. As well as host of other stuff to consider.

How can you categorize or say whether immediate consequences are more significant than delayed one's? Or that physical threats are more meaningful than visceral threats. It's entirely dependent on the type of experience and it's difficult to try to compare differences because their unique.

I mean how sane is it to grade the pressures of a logger vs someone in an active war zone - how would you even attempt to do that?

I'd argue that loggers don't just have a visceral threat but a physical threat based on the logical assumption that they can get killed doing what they do.

But that's at least what I was trying to get across with my post.

 

[Azam]

Pressure doesn't need to be quantified, it needs to be addressed, adjusted to, prepared for. According to the intensity of said pressure. And in order to do that you have to recognize the scale of it. Asking someone to face the visceral threat of literally being beaten into submission is asking a lot, and it's different than asking them to win points. Which is alright to say.

That's perfectly fine.

But I think it's problematic to try to say anything other than they are different. That's all.

 

[Sinister]

But we are consistently in-front of a gun so to speak. It's not a visceral thing because we ignore it and get on with life. I mean in all likelihood we're more likely to die outside a ring than in it. The death of Norifumi Yamamoto (rip) recently comes to mind. Most of the time we don't feel the pressure of it because we get on with life.

Those that are confronted with it - how do you grade their mental pressure with someone for example boxing for a living? You see what I'm trying to get at.

That's the point I'm making though. It's hard to categorize pressure because like you said coping mechanisms are different & you have literal/virtual/visceral considerations and short/long term consequences as well as physical/financial etc. As well as host of other stuff to consider.

How can you categorize or say whether immediate consequences are more significant than delayed one's? Or that physical threats are more meaningful than visceral threats. It's entirely dependent on the type of experience and it's difficult to try to compare differences because their unique.

I mean how sane is it to grade the pressures of a logger vs someone in an active war zone - how would you even attempt to do that?

I'd argue that loggers don't just have a visceral threat but a physical threat based on the logical assumption that they can get killed doing what they do.

But that's at least what I was trying to get across with my post.

You're over-fixating on the notion of categorization. Let's simplify:

- an act which significantly increases your chance of not only dying, but ending up permanently damaged ( especially cognitively ) carries a more substantial risk than one that does not. Even if this risk is merely the bold perception of it, because you FEEL it happening to you, or that it could happen at any second. The doesn't have to pan-out statistically when compared to all of humanity.

Simultaneously:

- any job that carries that same risk industrially is also a higher level of pressure. Logging, firefighting, building skyscrapers in Malaysia with little to no safety equipment. They're higher risk because they ARE higher risk. Your chances of dying go up, and you're aware of it.

When you are aware of what's happening you often have two choices, find the mental strength to accept any possible outcome (Zen), or become delusional to the actual chances it could happen to YOU. Unfortunately the second is the most common, just look at how difficult it is for fighters to even admit they were hurt when CLEARLY they were hurt. The development of that sort of thing is a direct reflection of the different (and most with relevant experience would agree, greater) pressure faced.

Most other Sports just do not have that. They are like a stove without the HOTTEST setting.

 

[shincheckin]

Anything with rules is a game though. That's the definition of a game: "a form of competitive activity or sport played according to rules." Competition fighting is a game - just one with potentially bad consequences to your health.

That's my point. It's hard to quantify pressure and I think it's best not to - as pressure is a hard thing to quantify. There's no universal scale to grade it with.

I see your point regarding being able to measure pressure and agree with it.

Although combat sports are "sports" they are fighting with rules.

You can play other sports, you cannot play boxing.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

You're over-fixating on the notion of categorization. Let's simplify:

- an act which significantly increases your chance of not only dying, but ending up permanently damaged ( especially cognitively ) carries a more substantial risk than one that does not. Even if this risk is merely the bold perception of it, because you FEEL it happening to you, or that it could happen at any second. The doesn't have to pan-out statistically when compared to all of humanity.

Simultaneously:

- any job that carries that same risk industrially is also a higher level of pressure. Logging, firefighting, building skyscrapers in Malaysia with little to no safety equipment. They're higher risk because they ARE higher risk. Your chances of dying go up, and you're aware of it.

When you are aware of what's happening you often have two choices, find the mental strength to accept any possible outcome (Zen), or become delusional to the actual chances it could happen to YOU. Unfortunately the second is the most common, just look at how difficult it is for fighters to even admit they were hurt when CLEARLY they were hurt. The development of that sort of thing is a direct reflection of the different (and most with relevant experience would agree, greater) pressure faced.

Most other Sports just do not have that. They are like a stove without the HOTTEST setting.

What fighters do you think had had a zen approach to fighting? You can include mma, muay thai, or kickboxing fighters if you want to.

 

[theranch]

While I've already said in the thread that i don't believe you have to have competitive experience to be a great coach i think some people in this thread are being rather dismissive of what it actually takes to fight. Saying the pressure to complete in combat sports is just like the pressure in any other sport is a sure sign you definitely have never fought. I swam at a decent competitive level and was always a nervous wreck before tournaments but it was nothing like the literal obsession for weeks leading up to fights. It's not just win or lose its so much more. Have you ever had a tooth chipped or disloged? It'll bother you for weeks with how noticeable it is and knowing there's not much you can do to fix it. In a fight you could lose several teeth or all of them, you could have your nose plastered over the sideof your face you could be paralysed. How can you argue with other people that the mental pressure of a fight is the same as any other sport if you have zero idea what that mental pressure is like? My first Amateur Boxing fight i got my arse kicked i froze up in front of the crowd and got beaten by a kid i should have smashed and that's the fight i learned the most from. Not competing is not a sign of a Coward but it's a bit disingenuous to argue with those who have and tell them what they were feeling if you haven't done it yourself.

 

[Cheap Shot]

Personally my thoughts are - you don't necessarily need to have fight experience to be a good striking coach.

I think fight experience is only important when you want to make your students compete. Then some sort of fight experience is necessary so you can help your students navigate during preparations for an exhibition, amateur or professional fight.

A striking coach who isn't preparing folks for competition isn't a striking coach. They're a dance teacher with heavy bags.

The commoner who is on the outside looking in loves to think that anyone with a good eye for technique and a love of the fight game can become a great coach. Although possible, those who live the life of a coach understand that it's the exception to the rule.

There is a reason the same names show up as examples over and over again of "great" coaches who never competed. For every Calzaghe, there are literally thousands of Freddie Roach's.

The idea is alive and well in this sub-forum. Some of the people who are the most vocal about technical analysis or comments on what a coach should/shouldn't do have exactly zero skin in the game. A keyboard expert writes some blog about Lomachenko angles and everyone slobs on his knob like he's a genius. Meanwhile I'm wiping blood of the face of 20 year old kid who trains his balls off every day and is trying to get out of the third round of a fight with a local animal.

For those who think they can be great coaches without having made that ring walk, head to a local gym and ask for a job, let me know how that goes for you. Or, instead, stick to writing a blog about shifting or a controlled fall.

 

[Sinister]

A striking coach who isn't preparing folks for competition isn't a striking coach. They're a dance teacher with heavy bags.

The commoner who is on the outside looking in loves to think that anyone with a good eye for technique and a love of the fight game can become a great coach. Although possible, those who live the life of a coach understand that it's the exception to the rule.

There is a reason the same names show up as examples over and over again of "great" coaches who never competed. For every Calzaghe, there are literally thousands of Freddie Roach's.

The idea is alive and well in this sub-forum. Some of the people who are the most vocal about technical analysis or comments on what a coach should/shouldn't do have exactly zero skin in the game. A keyboard expert writes some blog about Lomachenko angles and everyone slobs on his knob like he's a genius. Meanwhile I'm wiping blood of the face of 20 year old kid who trains his balls off every day and is trying to get out of the third round of a fight with a local animal.

For those who think they can be great coaches without having made that ring walk, head to a local gym and ask for a job, let me know how that goes for you. Or, instead, stick to writing a blog about shifting or a controlled fall.

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