What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before?

thugpoet said:
how can you teach someone to do something you dont know how to do?

Idk ask Tom thibs from the Minnesota Timberwolves
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Well Thibodeau did play in college. He played DIII BBall, but that is still better than 95% of people who have played basketball.

A better example is Charlie Weis. I dont think he ever played football at all. He dont think he played in HS. He was just some sort of ball boy, or team manager, and learned the game that way. He started coaching HS football, and then got onto the staff of higher and higher levels. He kept learning how to coach and never played. Eventually he coached NFL, and Notre Dame.
 
Everyone already leans heavily towards a coach needing to have experience in the vast majority of cases, so I don't see why it's a big issue. The only way a coach gets by around having competed that is if he somehow gets fantastic results from his students who do fight. And it's not like anyone is saying he'd somehow be worse if he had competed.
 
Reyesnuthugr said:
Everyone already leans heavily towards a coach needing to have experience in the vast majority of cases, so I don't see why it's a big issue. The only way a coach gets by around having competed that is if he somehow gets fantastic results from his students who do fight. And it's not like anyone is saying he'd somehow be worse if he had competed.
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to a certain degree- that CTE is a mother fucker
 
Reyesnuthugr said:
I think it's a good rule of thumb that you want a coach who has fought before.

I would also be cautious as to using that "rule" as a free license to discount or talk sh*t about what could be a coach who brings excellent results, who may not have fought.

98% of the time, you're going to want them to have fought. It's a good rule, but not an absolute one. The proof is in their results (their fighters), and most of the time you will find that they have fought.

This is one of those things you shouldn't go hardcore to the edge of either side of, imo, because the answer can vary with the individual.

Is a technician at a job necessarily always better suited to everything or more knowledgeable than a full engineer who studied and went through school but hasn't worked at a job in the industry yet? The answer is "sometimes" and "depends on which one"
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i agree with you. you got good coaches with low fights, to poor coaches with high fights, and everywhere inbetween. theres plenty of poor coaches with zero fights, but good coaches with zero fights are the exception to the rule.
 
Reyesnuthugr said:
Everyone already leans heavily towards a coach needing to have experience in the vast majority of cases, so I don't see why it's a big issue. The only way a coach gets by around having competed that is if he somehow gets fantastic results from his students who do fight. And it's not like anyone is saying he'd somehow be worse if he had competed.
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{<redford}
 
thugpoet said:
No I see your point but I think you are missing mine:

Before we can continue this conversation we have to create have to create a standard of what a " good coach" is. Roy Jones Sr created Roy Jr does that make him a good or great coach?
Most would say no. But he fits the profile of not a ton of prior experience.

If you look across most sports you will see a ton of high level coaches having success with little high level of experience.

NBA Eric splotria, tom thibodeau

Nfl bill belichick

Boxing Shane mosly Sr, Calzaghe

Mma Greg Jackson

And there are more many more. What qualifies someone to do a job isn't just about " been there done that" that's lazy thinking.

Across sports how many great coaches are there? I'd argue only a hand full. Infact most coaches are baby sitters. Most " good" coaches have been blessed to have found a fighter or player to take them to the promise land.

Most coaches are not that good imo so to say you need have fought before to be a good coach is moot because most coaches have fought and they still suck at coaching. So what is the real key to being a good coach?

Idk the answer because every fighter or athlete needs something different. Some need a father figure, some needs a kick in the pants, some need a hypeman etc a good coach imo needs to be aware enough to see what each athlete needs and give them that. Experience can help with that I agree but experience can also pigeonhole you into thinking every situation can be solved with the same solution.

To a hammer every problem looks like a nail.

A good coach needs the ablity to see and to create opportunities for growth in their athletes. Training for a few fights doesn't give you that. Trying to be a good coach does.

You said " Knowing how to do something, when to do it, being able to do it, and capable of teaching it to others, is the coach with exp." It's the coach with COACHING experience not fighting experience. Coaching and fighting are two separate skillsets. The only cross over is the technical side of what you are coaching. I coach Basketball and boxing. I use my coaching experience to teach each sport. What I am teaching is different but how I am teaching is the same.
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They all at least played DIII. Now back then DIII, DII, and DI did not have that much difference. But certainly anyone playing in those division are better than vast majority of people playing in HS. And even with that said, back then, kids actually got cut from a HS team. They did no have participation trophies.

Popovich played for the Air Force academy.
 
What is important is that they have learned the art, practiced it and polished it and applied it. <--- notice how this doesn't always = having competed (but it very often does)

Here's an example of someone I would gladly train under-- a high level skilled guy who is/was brought in to help champions spar to prepare for upcoming matches against high level opponents. Even if he never formally competed, he's done something even higher than most people of those have competed, even at pro level. He has valuable insight and real working knowledge that you're unlikely to get from some other coaches, despite their pro experience.
 
This statement "
Its not the same. This is where comparing a combat sport to regular sports is different and why coaching someone for a tennis match is not the same as coaching someone to go fight."

Makes me lose respect for you.

So are you telling me that you gsp fears are somehow stronger then lebron or Tigers or Tom Bradys?

This combat sports arrogance is why I hate talking to guys who come from modern martial arts. You sport is no more life changing then anyone else's.

It's lazy and shameful to try to prove your point by disrespecting the work someone else puts in to their respected skillset.

A PhD in biology is no harder than a PhD in physics.
 
thugpoet said:
This is where we disagree. Coaching is separate from fighting one can be a good coach without fight experience. One can not be a good coach without being a good coach.
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Just going to interject right here, this thread went apeshit after I posted, or I posted in the middle of it. Lol

That said, if you don't think knowing first-hand how your athletes feel trying to do the thing they're trying to do then that's a huge mistake as an instructor. Most of you who do any digging on me know I had exactly 1 pro fight, and got stopped in the first. It just happened to be an ESPN card, I was first fight. EVERYTHING that could have went wrong even leading up to that bout did go wrong. The only thing that went right was my weight, which was the easiest aspect for me as I was heavy into nutrition at the time.

I could write a whole book chapter on just going through that. I was 34 years old. I had to endure that at the age most fighters start to think about retiring. I didn't even think about that, but teaching fell on my head.

The truth about why most guys you name who never had high level athletic experience being good coaches is that most of them tried and failed. Some right out of the gate, massive injury, or some other cataclysmic event. But if you're older, wiser, and healthy at all, I'd strongly suggest taking an Amateur fight. You'll see and feel things that as of the moment, you're just speaking to these kids about. Somewhere deep down they know that. It doesn't mean they can't trust you, but having the added layer of relating directly cements the trust.

Can you or any other teacher come through in catastrophic situations, improvise, and put on a great clutch performance to get an athlete through something? Sure, but when thats all you got being clutch becomes a crutch. I don't see any sense in saying that having both is not better.
 
thugpoet said:
This statement "
Its not the same. This is where comparing a combat sport to regular sports is different and why coaching someone for a tennis match is not the same as coaching someone to go fight."

Makes me lose respect for you.

So are you telling me that you gsp fears are somehow stronger then lebron or Tigers or Tom Bradys?

This combat sports arrogance is why I hate talking to guys who come from modern martial arts. You sport is no more life changing then anyone else's.

It's lazy and shameful to try to prove your point by disrespecting the work someone else puts in to their respected skillset.

A PhD in biology is no harder than a PhD in physics.
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Yes the fear is different, you cant understand this because you never fought, and you never will until you do.

The pressure/fear you feel to get the game winning touch down, or last minute 3 pointer at the buzzer, or to make a crucial shot on the putting green is nothing like the pressure of going out and getting your wig split.

You think the pressure a target shooter has is different than the pressure a sniper has at war?

Yeah man the pressures are different in combat sports vs "making a goal" because your life is at stake. Oh no I missed the 3 pointer we loose vs oh no i lost I am now laying on the floor bleeding.

You think the way holyfield felt before stepping to to fight tyson is comparable to the pressure Tiger feels? GTFO here dude.

You dont like the arrogance of combat sports? You are quite arrogant to compare a 3 point shot to getting KTFO. Even making the comparisons is a perfect example of what I mean about a coach with experience vs without

Before you mentioned that you never fought, i had a hunch you never did by your statements and reactions, you are defending yourself, I never knocked your coaching ability, or said that its impossible etc. just that generally speaking a coach who has fought is better than a coach who hasnt. there can be good coaches who never fought, but they would be better coaches if they did, it definitely wouldnt make them worse.

I never disrespected you, my statements of coaches never fighting are true, and as you can see everyone agrees. Coaches such as yourself are the exception to the rule instead of getting all defensive about it you should be proud you are the exception to the rule.

since you state you have no respect for me. I additionally have none for you. A coward that never fought, is still a coward that never fought, no matter how great a coach they are.

I will agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
 
We have an amateur fighter here who was an Infantryman in the Army, and was active in Iraq. I'll never forget what he said after his first Amateur fight. Eyes wide, hands shaky..."That felt like War. Like when we were in firefights, it felt just like that. It felt like War."
 
Sub-text - Roy Jones Sr. Was an excellent trainer if you consider he built 4 fighters who won World Titles from the ground up. Roy Jr., Arthur Williams, Vince Phillips, and another I can never remember. He also had National and World level Amateurs that didn't pan-out as Pros. He's a little crazy, but we all are. It's just a shame more people don't know what he did largely due to the highly public falling out with Roy Jr.
 
Sinister said:
Just going to interject right here, this thread went apeshit after I posted, or I posted in the middle of it. Lol

That said, if you don't think knowing first-hand how your athletes feel trying to do the thing they're trying to do then that's a huge mistake as an instructor. Most of you who do any digging on me know I had exactly 1 pro fight, and got stopped in the first. It just happened to be an ESPN card, I was first fight. EVERYTHING that could have went wrong even leading up to that bout did go wrong. The only thing that went right was my weight, which was the easiest aspect for me as I was heavy into nutrition at the time.

I could write a whole book chapter on just going through that. I was 34 years old. I had to endure that at the age most fighters start to think about retiring. I didn't even think about that, but teaching fell on my head.

The truth about why most guys you name who never had high level athletic experience being good coaches is that most of them tried and failed. Some right out of the gate, massive injury, or some other cataclysmic event. But if you're older, wiser, and healthy at all, I'd strongly suggest taking an Amateur fight. You'll see and feel things that as of the moment, you're just speaking to these kids about. Somewhere deep down they know that. It doesn't mean they can't trust you, but having the added layer of relating directly cements the trust.

Can you or any other teacher come through in catastrophic situations, improvise, and put on a great clutch performance to get an athlete through something? Sure, but when thats all you got being clutch becomes a crutch. I don't see any sense in saying that having both is not better.
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I never said having both isn't better. I said it isn't a requirement to be a great coach. Which it isn't.
 
Sinister said:
We have an amateur fighter here who was an Infantryman in the Army, and was active in Iraq. I'll never forget what he said after his first Amateur fight. Eyes wide, hands shaky..."That felt like War. Like when we were in firefights, it felt just like that. It felt like War."
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without saying too much, i have a very similar personal experience, the moments prior to the incident felt exactly the same as before a fight.
 
shincheckin said:
Yes the fear is different, you cant understand this because you never fought, and you never will until you do.

The pressure/fear you feel to get the game winning touch down, or last minute 3 pointer at the buzzer, or to make a crucial shot on the putting green is nothing like the pressure of going out and getting your wig split.

You think the pressure a target shooter has is different than the pressure a sniper has at war?

Yeah man the pressures are different in combat sports vs "making a goal" because your life is at stake. Oh no I missed the 3 pointer we loose vs oh no i lost I am now laying on the floor bleeding.

You think the way holyfield felt before stepping to to fight tyson is comparable to the pressure Tiger feels? GTFO here dude.

You dont like the arrogance of combat sports? You are quite arrogant to compare a 3 point shot to getting KTFO. Even making the comparisons is a perfect example of what I mean about a coach with experience vs without

Before you mentioned that you never fought, i had a hunch you never did by your statements and reactions, you are defending yourself, I never knocked your coaching ability, or said that its impossible etc. just that generally speaking a coach who has fought is better than a coach who hasnt. there can be good coaches who never fought, but they would be better coaches if they did, it definitely wouldnt make them worse.

I never disrespected you, my statements of coaches never fighting are true, and as you can see everyone agrees. Coaches such as yourself are the exception to the rule instead of getting all defensive about it you should be proud you are the exception to the rule.

since you state you have no respect for me. I additionally have none for you. A coward that never fought, is still a coward that never fought, no matter how great a coach they are.

I will agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
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My stance Has nothing to do with me. Me being living proof of your flawed thinking is besides the point.

Your argument comes down to " but fighting is different " it's not pressure is pressure regardless of the situation. My value isn't defined by sherdog but I appreciate the statement.

I don't feel disrespected by you. I said you are dis respecting the experiences of others to try to prove your point which is where I take offense.

Mayweathers pressure isn't any different than tiger woods. To say so is lazy.

There isnt a equation that makes a coach great. Which is my point. And trying to simplify it as experience x techniques is lazy.
 
It's like arguing going to school vs on the job training.

It doesn't matter how you get the ablity as long AS you have it.
 
Having to accept death as a tentative outcome of your endeavor is pretty different. Any sports psychologist would agree. This is why the NFL's cover-up of brain injuries is such a huge thing. Players were actively being deceived about the consequences of their pursuit. And regardless of the fact that American Football has more traumatic head injuries, Combat Sports still carry the aura of being unnecessarily brutal in nature and having the highest risk of severe reduction of quality of life.

thug - I think the problem is you're speaking relatively. TO Tiger the pressure is the same. Many athletes would suggest the same thing, but's just not. If you want them to feel the same amount of pressure then stand close to them and tell them every time they fuck up you get to punch or kick them in the face, and you know HOW to. Then ask them how that same situation feels. I think they'll agree there's a variance:

 
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