International Germany is so screwed

[Bukowski82]

Well it is just a few bad apples. Percentage wise. Too bad that the lowest estimate is 10% of the batch is rotten. The problem is even if you change that number to 1%, it amounts to 16 000 000 bad apples. That's a great many people who are opposed to our way of life.

Exactly... And the rest of them are either complicit, supportive and simply don't care one way or the other.

 

[Mike]

Well it is just a few bad apples. Percentage wise. Too bad that the lowest estimate is 10% of the batch is rotten. The problem is even if you change that number to 1%, it amounts to 16 000 000 bad apples. That's a great many people who are opposed to our way of life.

Bingo. I really do think it's a tiny percentage overall, but that becomes a problem when there are millions of them. I see anti-muslim sentiment growing, and it's kind of hard to blame people. If even 1/100 commit an act of terrorism its simply far too many, considering ultimately it isn't our responsibility to take them in and support them.

Look at the couple that shot up their workplace. By all accounts they were treated well and were well liked, yet they still suddenly went off the deep end and murdered a bunch of people. Even a handful of incidents like that are enough to make people say ok, that's enough of these people, fuck you then deal with your own problems.

 

[in the]

Well tbf with many other things you can just say "hey, that one dude is just crazy. Everyone else is mostly cool". However, islam in general doesn't seem compatible with a modern liberal culture. They believe that women are inferior to men, and disputes over ideology and religious beliefs are best resolved with domination or violence. It's honestly where a lot of other religions were hundreds of years ago. I mean christians used to kill or torture people that disagreed with them too. The difference is other religions had to adapt to a changing culture, and reign some of the craziness in. It seems their religion simply hasn't had to do that.

Well the difference is also theological to holy texts, but I don't really care to get into that debate.

The point I was making is that the left doesn't have glib explanations for other groups like they do Islam. They don't extend that olive branch to the political right. Why is Islam their pet?

 

[Bald1]

It's a few bad apples actually doing the violent stuff, which is good.

It's more than a few bad apples who support or won't fight against the true bad apples. And the tree has a poisonous side as well.

I get really sick of the "small minority" argument. Muslims make up 1.6 billion people on earth. Percentage wise, yes it might be a small minority, but factoring in scale is quite a different thing. 10% of bad Scientologists aren't a real threat to world peace. 10% of bad Muslims is a huge problem.

I agree that not all Muslims should be painted with the same brush. I also believe we can't be so gripped by political correctness to not even acknowledge there's a problem with Islam in western societies, though.

Exactly... And the rest of them are either complicit, supportive and simply don't care one way or the other.

I understand all of this, and I'm squarely, and firmly in your corner when it comes to this discussion. In fact I was smiling to myself reading the last few pages because the conversation between you two and MicroBrew reads like a transcript of some of my internal dialogs as it pertains to this topic. As in "wtf is wrong with people defending Islam with such passion? How da fawk can some people be so blind when it comes to these nutters?"

 

[Mike]

Well the difference is also theological to holy texts, but I don't really care to get into that debate.

The point I was making is that the left doesn't have glib explanations for other groups like they do Islam. They don't extend that olive branch to the political right. Why is Islam their pet?

I honestly think it just comes down to misplaced political correctness. In the western world we're taught all types of people and ideologies have to be respected, but there is really no religion like islam practiced in the west. I'd go as far as to say it's completely incompatible with our way of life, they simply cannot coexist indefinitely. Mixing in so many people with a radically different belief system they are willing to defend with violence is a terrible idea.

 

[in the]

I honestly think it just comes down to misplaced political correctness. In the western world we're taught all types of people and ideologies have to be respected, but there is really no religion like islam practiced in the west. I'd go as far as to say it's completely incompatible with our way of life, they simply cannot coexist indefinitely. Mixing in so many people with a radically different belief system they are willing to defend with violence is a terrible idea.

The thing is, the people on the left I'm referring to are smart people. They've had to rationalize this like I have, yet they continue to protect Islam and treat its adherents as if they are children who simply cannot handle criticism and must be protected. This goes deeper than just misplaced PC, IMO, though I do agree that like many naive idealistic beliefs, they're much easier to cling to when you haven't been directly exposed to them for long periods of times (such as coastal people telling those who live at the southern border that they need to be more accepting and open).

 

[IDL]

I've been saying this for awhile, and I've taken flak from leftists on this site and others. I've seen this bizarre ideology of intersectionalism/critical race theory start to take hold of the left, and it bothers me. Rational, sane, intelligent liberals I know in real life have begun in the past few years to regurgitate bullshit that stems from progressive intersectionalism. They view the political right as the true enemy, and if you are part of the straight/white/Christian heteropatriarchy, you are "privileged" and therefore targets (because they view you as being in power). Since Christianity is such a part of western cultures, and many people in power are Christians, Christianity is to blame for the slowing down of progress and must be taken down. That is why the progressive left and Muslims have come together in a really bizarre alliance. Even though their ideologies are contradictory, even more than Christianity, they want to take down Christianity's importance in western societies for different reasons - leftists because they feel Christianity blocks progress, Muslims because it isn't the true religion. That's why it's so bizarre, and really, leftists and Muslims are using each other to accomplish a much greater goal. It's a power play.

Plus, there's the whole ideology behind "privilege/power" and "underprivileged/oppressed" at play. Muslims are nowhere near the levels of power of Christians, and therefore must be uplifted.

I've tried to understand this for quite some time. A few years ago, I was like you - I might not have been as liberal as you, but I couldn't stand Republicans and still had many left-leaning beliefs, but I couldn't understand why people who said they believed in leftist principles would abandon those principles to protect and coddle an ideology that is exponentially worse than the powers they were fighting. What I wrote above are the best conclusions I can gather.

I just wish liberals out there who turn off their critical thinking skills when it comes to Islam would stop being so duplicitous. You guys and girls have to know that deep inside, the "power" you're fighting against is nowhere near as bad as the one you feel must be protected. Wake up from the slumber. Look at what was posted in certain Muslim areas in the west after 9/11:

Is that an alliance worth making? I know you hate Christianity, and I can't say some of that hatred isn't deserved. But what you are protecting is far, far worse than Christianity. Please stop rationalizing this. Please stop equating Christianity with Islam.

Have you listened to Yuri Bezmenov (KGB Defector) talk about ideological subversion? What he talks about explains a lot of what is happening with the Marxist idiologies creeping into the left (and the right to a lesser extent), and he did his presentations in the early 80's so we have the benefit of hindsight.

Spoiler

 

[Mike]

The thing is, the people on the left I'm referring to are smart people. They've had to rationalize this like I have, yet they continue to protect Islam and treat its adherents as if they are children who simply cannot handle criticism and must be protected. This goes deeper than just misplaced PC, IMO, though I do agree that like many naive idealistic beliefs, they're much easier to cling to when you haven't been directly exposed to them for long periods of times (such as coastal people telling those who live at the southern border that they need to be more accepting and open).

Even the smartest people in the world aren't smart about everything. I think growing up in a culture that basically forces you to accept everything makes it harder to draw the line about what's unacceptable. If there were a lot more violent muslims I think it would be easier for them, but they're just not equipped to stand against a group where say 7% of it's members are violent lunatics.


In their mind 7% is too low a number to oppose the entire group, and I can see the logic in that. However when that 7% is blowing shit up and shooting folks, well it's more than enough to most people.

 

[in the]

Have you listened to Yuri Bezmenov (KGB Defector) talk about ideological subversion? What he talks about explains a lot of what is happening with the Marxist idiologies creeping into the left (and the right to a lesser extent), and he did his presentations in the early 80's so we have the benefit of hindsight.

Spoiler

I haven't heard it but I downloaded it for later. I'm skeptical of that viewpoint FWIW.

Even the smartest people in the world aren't smart about everything. I think growing up in a culture that basically forces you to accept everything makes it harder to draw the line about what's unacceptable. If there were a lot more violent muslims I think it would be easier for them, but they're just not equipped to stand against a group where say 7% of it's members are violent lunatics.


In their mind 7% is too low a number to oppose the entire group, and I can see the logic in that. However when that 7% is blowing shit up and shooting folks, well it's more than enough to most people.

Well, at a micro level, I think a lot of my leftist friends are simply reading/hearing/watching too much Islam apologists from their leftist news sources (shows, blogs, videos, etc.). I don't think they're thinking too deeply about it. I have one friend who couldn't believe Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl. She was horrified. So some of it is a lack of knowledge, a belief that all religions are really just the same.

But some of them have to know the truth. They have to know the ugly side of Islam and still defend it no matter what. There's an ideology behind such behaviors. Again, they won't use the 7% argument (just using your example) every time a conservative/Christian does something bad.

 

[Doctor Axel]

Germany is fucked since the moment their people is not able to avoid feeling guilty for the Nazi shit. Funny thing is that history is written by the winners, and Adolf wasnt as bad as they have been painting him. He was excesive, but so were the polacs, churchill, Roosevelt and specially, Stalin.
Germany was a shithole before Hitler. Even if they dont wanna see it, the rest of the world knows they owe him for what they are now as a country.
When speaking about war propaganda, the nazi and russian ones are always mentioned, but no one mentions the USA and jew... wich, if you look now back in time, has been enormous.

*facepalm
What a load of neo-nazi horseshit.

Hitler is by far....BY FAR, the worst thing ever to happen to Germany.
If Germany was a shithole before Hitler then how would you describe the state he left her in in '45?
He lied to us, he deceived us, he destroyed us and in the very end he blamed us for failing him after he got us in a hopeless situation.
You wanna see what was his gift to us?...watch some colorized youtube footage of Berlin and Dresden after the war.

Germany invented and pioneered so many things in so many domains and its predecessor, the HRE was a beacon of culture, music, literature and philosophy......and what are we best known for?...the holocaust, nazis, WW2 and Hitler.
Thousand years history of great achievements went down the drain because of those cursed 12 years.

You have zero fucking idea how much damage Hitler did to us.

We owe him for what we are today?.,...what an idiot.

 

[IDL]

I haven't heard it but I downloaded it for later. I'm skeptical of that viewpoint FWIW.

The viewpoint is incomplete but complementary to whats going on. He speaks from a soviet perspective, but the Oligarchy within the US act like a fifth column because they assist it, as they assisted the soviets. The process is still actively working.

 

[in the]

The viewpoint is incomplete but complementary to whats going on. He speaks from a soviet perspective, but the Oligarchy within the US act like a fifth column because they assist it, as they assisted the soviets. The process is still actively working.

It's easier to poke holes in such a convoluted theory like that than it is a bunch of old Europeans not wanting to give up their retirement spending and fearing a massive decline in birthrates among the natives.

 

[in the]

*facepalm
What a load of neo-nazi horseshit.

Hitler is by far....BY FAR, the worst thing ever to happen to Germany.
If Germany was a shithole before Hitler then how would you describe the state he left her in in '45?
He lied to us, he deceived us, he destroyed us and in the very end he blamed us for failing him after he got us in a hopeless situation.
You wanna see what was his gift to us?...watch some colorized youtube footage of Berlin and Dresden after the war.

Germany invented and pioneered so many things in so many domains and its predecessor, the HRE was a beacon of culture, music, literature and philosophy......and what are we best known for?...the holocaust, nazis, WW2 and Hitler.
Thousand years history of great achievements went down the drain because of those cursed 12 years.

You have zero fucking idea how much damage Hitler did to us.

We owe him for what we are today?.,...what an idiot.

It's true that Germany was a shit hole before Hitler. It's also true that Germany was an even bigger shit hole after Hitler's reign, with millions upon millions of innocent lives lost.

The reason Germany has bounced back so much is because of the Marshall Plan.

 

[Bald1]

....

Well, at a micro level, I think a lot of my leftist friends are simply reading/hearing/watching too much Islam apologists from their leftist news sources (shows, blogs, videos, etc.). I don't think they're thinking too deeply about it. I have one friend who couldn't believe Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl. She was horrified. So some of it is a lack of knowledge, a belief that all religions are really just the same.

But some of them have to know the truth. They have to know the ugly side of Islam and still defend it no matter what. There's an ideology behind such behaviors. Again, they won't use the 7% argument (just using your example) every time a conservative/Christian does something bad.

I tend to think it's partly naivete, and partly a refusal to believe that such shitty ideology rules such a large percentage of the human population. They find the idea that the religion of peace isn't what they think it to be unpalatable. I notice most of the excuse makers are idealogues, or just uneducated in history.

 

[IDL]

It's easier to poke holes in such a convoluted theory like that than it is a bunch of old Europeans not wanting to give up their retirement spending and fearing a massive decline in birthrates among the natives.

I don't think it has anything to do with convoluted. You said yourself that you don't understand some of the dynamics at play. That means there is more to it.

 

[in the]

I tend to think it's partly naivete, and partly a refusal to believe that such shitty ideology rules such a large percentage of the human population. They find the idea that the religion of peace isn't what they think it to be unpalatable. I notice most of the excuse makers are idealogues, or just uneducated in history.

It's true that some of them purposely keep themselves in the dark so they don't have to face inconvenient truths, but some of them actually know the truth and keep defending anyway. The former is easier to understand. The latter, not so much.

 

[Bald1]

It's true that some of them purposely keep themselves in the dark so they don't have to face inconvenient truths, but some of them actually know the truth and keep defending anyway. The former is easier to understand. The latter, not so much.

The latter defies logic. Unless you subscribe to IDLs line of thought. Which, I admit, makes sense. (I see you lurking, you conspiracy rascal. lol)

 

[in the]

The latter defies logic. Unless you subscribe to IDLs line of thought. Which, I admit, makes sense. (I see you lurking, you conspiracy rascal. lol)

Yeah, I just can't buy into that notion, though (boogeymen in the shadows). I just think many of them are intentionally virtue signalling bullshit they know isn't true and don't want to stand up against their 'side' and would rather stay quiet/conform to the prevailing wisdom because there are bigger battles to fight against people in power.

Of course, why it's prevailing wisdom is the more curious aspect, which brings me back to post #1549.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Living in Germany I estimate that between 30% and 40% of the population is against Germany granting asylum to the current refugee wave which is estimated at around 800k for 2015.

Yet the media and political parties have obviously made the decision that they are all for it.

The only party that seems to question it is the AfD, against which ALL mainstream parties and media are ganging against.

What I find absurd,almost kafkaesque, is that in the media the burden is on the people who oppose this massive wave of refugees to prove why it may be such a bad thing, with much demagogy and political rectitude going on. 1% per annum of a country's population (80m) is a huge deal. Common sense would dictate that the status quo be given more weight in such a policy that will have huge permanent consequences on a society.

My problem is not even with the refugees.

But with the fact that German society is not going to even have a real debate about it.

There is such a divergence between the establishment 's rethoric and what people actually want.

It's really out of control.

Wait a minute. Aren't Germans not having enough kids to sustain the population so they have to rely on immigration to survive? LOL the irony.

 

[Bald1]

Yeah, I just can't buy into that notion, though (boogeymen in the shadows). I just think many of them are intentionally virtue signalling bullshit they know isn't true and don't want to stand up against their 'side' and would rather stay quiet/conform to the prevailing wisdom because there are bigger battles to fight against people in power.

Of course, why it's prevailing wisdom is the more curious aspect, which brings me back to post #1549.

Virtue signaling? Great phrase. I've spoken about people posting on Facebook just to advertise how kind and generous they are, but that sums it up much better.

Post 1549 is also excellent, and more along the lines of what I believe in as opposed to puppet masters pulling the strings from the dark.

I think that's it for me for tonight. Cheers!