Sure, the guy spent his whole life training and practicing those techniques his family invented just to screw you out of a few dollars.
Deep down he knows spider guard is the the true way but he's desperate for cash. lol
Thoughts on Rickson's BJJ/Self Defense claims?
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Sure, the guy spent his whole life training and practicing those techniques his family invented just to screw you out of a few dollars.
Deep down he knows spider guard is the the true way but he's desperate for cash. lol
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I only read the first few pages of this thread when it was new, and just dropped in on the last page. As much as it pains me to say because I've hated him from other threads, I have to say that some of what JohnSouth says is true and I'd have to agree.
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His family has spent three generations selling their interpretation of judo and catch wrestling as the only true "self defense." And now that MMA and BJJ has gone mainstream he says, "no, you guys are all doing it wrong. THIS is the real self defense system." Do you think he makes these claims simply because he's a noble crusader for the self-defense of all mankind? Not saying this discredits his theories, but its certainly something that should be acknowledged.
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Clarify which Lord I hate and why I am a coward?
Spent a lot of time fighting people too...they also pioneered that MMA and BJJ you like so much.
The guys they lost to were far from cans and some of those you disparage were the real life Renato Laranjas of their day winning 25 straight times in tournaments.
MMA is not a realistic self defense system for the average person and it does not address many things that need addressing. It just isn't done, we already had this discussion about beginner MMA classes.
If you think the guy at your local UFC gym knows more than Rickson about combat be my guest.
And if you think your local MMA gym catering to hipsters isn't looking for cash you're dreaming.
You hate Christians and abstain from combat out of fear from your own admission.
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I don't think I "know more" than Rickson about combat. It's that I don't 100% buy his well-practiced marketing assertion that the purple belt I have in jiu jitsu is worthless on da streetz without The Rickson Gracie Self Defense System (c).
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I don't hate Christians, Muslim's, atheists, or even Scientologist's for their beliefs.
I do not abstain from combat, as I don't think I've been challenged to combat in recent memory aside from child hood/school yard fights. I haven't been a situation where I would need to fight anyone since before I was a legal adult. If someone called (or calls) me a name to fluff up their ego, that's fine I will walk away as I guess that is fear of combat. If someone threatens my family or safety that is another story, but I have not had that happen.
Did you watch the interview with Budo Jake?
That's not what happened. Rickson did not say take off your black belt, it's worthless.
And Budo Jake also did not have a crap attitude and say "ah Rickson STFU you're just out for my cash. I don't wanna practice self defense it's boring and doesn't work".
Well now that you are backtracking on some of your more hostile remarks I'll lay off.
I assume calling my God imaginary was motivated out of some kind of misguided benevolence.
See, I'm reasonable.
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That's not what Rickson is saying at all.
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I did watch it, and he belittled Jake's black belt, then used a classic carnival huckster tactic where he did a public demo under his terms and rules (the old: "Ah yes, but what if I did THIS?"). Again, it's not that Rickson's techniques are invalid, it's the sales message he and his family push that A. "Self Defense" is defined as we define it; and B. If you don't follow OUR system for "Self Defense" then you are unprepared for da streetz, even if you are a black belt like Budo Jake. There's loads of textbook marketing schtick going on here, and it has little to do with Rickson's valiant (if embellished) fighting history or his fascinating invisible jiu-jitsu theories.
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For me the truth's somewhere in the middle.
I realise that self-defence is often more about avoidable street fighting than sudden attacks out of the blue. But I'm fine with that. There are some fights I will back down from - I'm not about to die in the face of insurmountable odds but then I'm not going to let every idiot out there walk all over me either. I also think that the added self confidence of being able to handle a scrap makes you less likely to get singled out in the first place. I've been in a few fights. I could probably have avoided most of them but not all of them. Some I probably should have avoided. Others I'm quite happy with my stance and would feel worse for not standing up for myself, including situations where I've helped a weaker person under attack.
I think pure sport BJJ is very helpful but potentially overrated for defence/fighting. I think many (but not all) of the set-piece self defence moves in SD classes are pointless. But I absolutely believe that training with punches in mind, having decent take downs, fight awareness, pressure training etc are all required if you want to use your skills effectively on the streets - for whatever that reason is. And I think Rickson is right in that there are people, including some purple belts, that would get their arses kicked badly by an experienced thug; partly because they'd get suckered early on and then blitzed, which is the usual thug tactics.
I realise that self-defence is often more about avoidable street fighting than sudden attacks out of the blue. But I'm fine with that. There are some fights I will back down from - I'm not about to die in the face of insurmountable odds but then I'm not going to let every idiot out there walk all over me either. I also think that the added self confidence of being able to handle a scrap makes you less likely to get singled out in the first place. I've been in a few fights. I could probably have avoided most of them but not all of them. Some I probably should have avoided. Others I'm quite happy with my stance and would feel worse for not standing up for myself, including situations where I've helped a weaker person under attack.
I think pure sport BJJ is very helpful but potentially overrated for defence/fighting. I think many (but not all) of the set-piece self defence moves in SD classes are pointless. But I absolutely believe that training with punches in mind, having decent take downs, fight awareness, pressure training etc are all required if you want to use your skills effectively on the streets - for whatever that reason is. And I think Rickson is right in that there are people, including some purple belts, that would get their arses kicked badly by an experienced thug; partly because they'd get suckered early on and then blitzed, which is the usual thug tactics.
Possibly, but let's face it...
There's Budo Jake black belts and then there's Rickson Gracie black belts.
Rickson has earned his status and Jake took it in stride.
We've all had the experience where one almost invisible tweak made a technique we already knew work way better, it's not a chi blast.
This is not about Rickson but the techniques, I can agree that the Gracie marketing can be shrill at times but have a product to pitch just like Budo Jake does.
The only question in my mind is, "is this a useful product?", not Rickson's ego.
If nothing else, I think it would improve a lot of people's standup and movement on their feet.
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as i said, i've learned some mind-blowing invisible jiu-jitsu stuff from the few times i've trained with rickson-lineage guys, so i'm certain rickson himself could teach me jiu-jitsu that would make my face explode. the only disagreement here is of the term "self defense," and whether it's a martial arts gimmick or a legitimate and necessary tactical system. one of the rickson-lineage guys i mentioned once told me emphatically that the old myth is true about the gracies teaching real jiu-jitsu only to family members, and intentionally flawed self-defense stuff to the general public. he pointed specifically to the slightly incorrect way people carry out certain standard moves, and that invisible jiu-jitsu is essentially the real way to do them that gracie family members already know about (like the upa sweep rickson shows jake). not saying this means anything to my argument, but it does reveal some of the psychology of the gracie family.
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I think that's almost certainly nonsense. The Gracie's didn't even invent most of jiu jitsu. Most of it is Japanese to begin with. The Brazilian angle wasn't just Gracie but also Fadda, Franco et all and much of the rest has evolved over time with input from many different people. So I fail to see how they could have uniqu access to "the true secrets of jiu jitsu" I don't even believe there IS a single correct way to do most moves but rather a variety of ways of achieving the same thing. And Gracies get beat by non Gracies all the time so just how effective are these secrets anyway?
I think Rickson's insights are likely to be gained from his substantial personal experience. I think the idea that they deliberately teach things very slightly incorrectly is a bit comical and almost certainly marketing hype to give the impression they know something the rest of us can only buy from them.
I dont think you can really simulate street confrontation. The closest in the gym would probably be getting newbies from an MMA class to come in spar with the Bjj class. Tell them to just go wild, that would be fun actually.
Could most BJJ classes do more to prepare you for encounters with thugs? Yes I think so. (in my experience)
Would I want them to? No not really, BJJ has taught me a few things about fighting.
a) Avoid it, because some people who are bigger and stronger than you can fuck you up regardless of your training. They also may have friends. They also may have weapons
b) Avoid it, because most of the time your ego is the only thinking stopping you from getting away. I've been mugged a couple of times and was racked with shame afterwards as I had ill-conceived thoughts I should have fought them off. I now realise I did exactly the right thing, and its likely I would bear stab wound scars or worse had I attempted this.
c) Avoid it, the law is sketchy around choking people and punching them in the face while you're on top of them.
Could most BJJ classes do more to prepare you for encounters with thugs? Yes I think so. (in my experience)
Would I want them to? No not really, BJJ has taught me a few things about fighting.
a) Avoid it, because some people who are bigger and stronger than you can fuck you up regardless of your training. They also may have friends. They also may have weapons
b) Avoid it, because most of the time your ego is the only thinking stopping you from getting away. I've been mugged a couple of times and was racked with shame afterwards as I had ill-conceived thoughts I should have fought them off. I now realise I did exactly the right thing, and its likely I would bear stab wound scars or worse had I attempted this.
c) Avoid it, the law is sketchy around choking people and punching them in the face while you're on top of them.
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"Self defense is worthless because I'm afraid to defend myself!"
Not saying you did the wrong thing in muggings, btw.
Just saying you do have to defend yourself sometimes, and pretending you don't have to is foolish especially for a martial artist.
Agreed, on these occasions though I was stone cold sober and gave up my posessions straight away, which were easily replacable. A guy tried to snatch money out of my hand once on the street when I was hungover and I knocked him on his ass, just didnt think about about. Still think that was a stupid thing to do.
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After following this thread for a while, something needs to be said regardless of whether or not you agree with Rickson or believe in "self-defense"...
You guys understand that johnsouth is clearly a fanatic right? I grew up as the son of a Pentecostal preacher and the way he talks about God and "master" Rickson and sees any reasonable discussion or disagreement as tantamount to heresy reminds me of the fanatical stuff I grew up around and see still sometimes today in cults.
So you understand arguing with him is like yelling at a wall right?
You guys understand that johnsouth is clearly a fanatic right? I grew up as the son of a Pentecostal preacher and the way he talks about God and "master" Rickson and sees any reasonable discussion or disagreement as tantamount to heresy reminds me of the fanatical stuff I grew up around and see still sometimes today in cults.
So you understand arguing with him is like yelling at a wall right?
