Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

[BJJ_Rage]

Dunno taking down completely untrained people is often trivial because I often can just rag doll them because they are untrained and as such have 0 athleticism of any kind (so avoid any tie up and level change and bulldoze method destroys them) or they are physically unable to move their feet away to move from a low single.

It depends on your size...

 

[dirtroller]

1. It shows even training for slaps in an upcoming event, they have done so little real fighting that they can't deal with it.

2. If they can't deal with a guy slapping them, on the ground where they are supposed to be experts, they sure can't deal with someone who can throw strong, hard punches on the feet. They are going to cave and fold quickly.

That's because they're competing against OTHER BLACK BELTS who understand position and control.

Every BJJ blackbelt knows how to shoot a double leg. He will be on top and in control of untrained guy in seconds.

 

[BIGthingsSON]

This is the dumbest softest topic ive ever read in my life. I think i might be done with this section

 

[dirtroller]

If you think a competitive black belt is going to pull guard and go for a heel hook, you're crazy.

 

[Kinosis]

That's because they're competing against OTHER BLACK BELTS who understand position and control.

Every BJJ blackbelt knows how to shoot a double leg. He will be on top and in control of untrained guy in seconds.

lol, good one.

 

[Kinosis]

This is the dumbest softest topic ive ever read in my life. I think i might be done with this section

Well, bye.

 

[dirtroller]

lol, good one.

You’re deluded if you think a BJJ black belt would not be able change levels and take down some random untrained guy. I don’t think I’ve ever met a black belt younger than 55ish that would not be able to do this to someone around their size.

 

[TheMaster]

I'm astonished by the self-doubt of modern day grapplers regarding taking down untrained opponents. I can only assume this is the Dunning Kreuger effect in action. Either that or people don't fight with their untrained friends for fun?

One of the benefits (detriments?) of training BJJ as a whitebelt teen during the golden age of BJJ vs. the World was that I fought with all my friends, neighbors, bagboys, and/or anyone who would agree to it, to demonstrate the resplendent beauty of BJJ. I had no knowledge of takedowns other than kind of squat, hug the legs, drive. It was, universally, effective on untrained individuals.

Taking down your friends, bagboys etc in playfighting is not the same as a bigger stronger guy actively resisting while trying to punch you for real.

Were they? I mean right now here I am trainign every day to dominate untrained people on the ground, but how exactly will I get the fight there?

Ill be honest: even against untrained people I have my doubts

Your doubts are justified, train some Judo and get your takedown and throwing skills.

As many of us long suspected, the combat effectiveness of sport BJJ even at blackbelt level has becone questionable. Just assuming a determined untrained guy who is strong will simply 'fall over' if you hug him and try to wheelbarrow is a foolish assumption. It would be even harder if lets say our untrained dude played some football. His takedown defence will likely be too much for even an experienced pure BJJ guy, and an ass kicking may well be the result.

I have no doubt that an original GJJ blackbelt will kick the ass of even a stronger, bigger untrained dude ( within reasonable limits of size difference) 90% of the time in a fight.
But they trained with strikes and more takedowns with a self defence orientation.
For a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who has very limited takedown abilities and never faced a punch before, fighting a tough larger stronger guy who can hit hard (which many untrained guys can), might be as much as a 50-50 fight depending on the variables and size difference.

I would not ask the question of original GJJ, and there is no way in hell a GJJ blackbelt gets his ass beat by an untrained dude the majority of the time, and definately not by some now fucking famous loss prevention guy.

For sport BJJ the way they train now, the odds plummet and it is very feasable a sport BJJ blackbelt (especially if he is not a very big guy) may very well get his ass beat by a large strong untrained guy who can hit.
Given the original UFCs were started to promote BJJ as the 'ultimate fighting style', not to mention trashing and ridiculing just about every other style under the sun for the better part of 20 years, the turnaround and loss of combat effectiveness has to be one of the greatest ironies in modern martial arts.

 

[Evenflow80]

Taking down your friends, bagboys etc in playfighting is not the same as a bigger stronger guy actively resisting while trying to punch you for real.



Your doubts are justified, train some Judo and get your takedown and throwing skills.

As many of us long suspected, the combat effectiveness of sport BJJ even at blackbelt level has becone questionable. Just assuming a determined untrained guy who is strong will simply 'fall over' if you hug him and try to wheelbarrow is a foolish assumption. Lets say our untrained dude played some football. His takedown defence will likely be too much for even an experienced pure BJJ guy, and an ass kicking may well be the result.

I have no doubt that an original GJJ blackbelt will kick the ass of even a stronger, bigger untrained dude ( within reasonable limits of size difference) 90% of the time in a fight.
But they trained with strikes and more takedowns with a self defence orientation.
For a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who has very limited takedown abilities and never faced a punch before, fighting a tough larger stronger guy who can hit hard (which many untrained guys can), might be as much as a 50-50 fight depending on the variables and size difference.

I would not ask the question of original GJJ, and there is no way in hell a GJJ blackbelt gets his ass beat by an untrained dude the majority of the time, and definately not by some now fucking famous loss prevention guy.

For sport BJJ the way they train now, the odds plummet and it is very feasable a sport BJJ blackbelt (especially if he is not a very big guy) may very well get his ass beat by a large strong untrained guy who can hit.
Given the original UFCs were started to promote BJJ as the 'ultimate fighting style', not to mention trashing and ridiculing just about every other style under the sun for the better part of 20 years, the turnaround and loss of combat effectiveness has to be one of the greatest ironies in modern martial arts.

I used to doubt myself even if the fight got to the ground against an untrained opponent . Now I'm 99% confident once it gets there I will be completrly on control . My main concern is getting it there . That's where I have significant doubt.

Once on the ground even a mid level blue belt like me just has way way more experience on the ground than the average joe . I'm sorry but we get huge strong young guys all the time starting up and up until a year ago they would give me a hard time , now the difference in experience is great enough I have zero issues handling them.

 

[TheMaster]

I used to doubt myself even if the fight got to the ground against an untrained opponent . Now I'm 99% confident once it gets there I will be completrly on control . My main concern is getting it there . That's where I have significant doubt.

Once on the ground even a mid level blue belt like me just has way way more experience on the ground than the average joe . I'm sorry but we get huge strong young guys all the time starting up and up until a year ago they would give me a hard time , now the difference in experience is great enough I have zero issues handling them.

Yes, getting a huge strong young guy on the ground is not going to be easy, especially if hes punching you. Not training takedowns in modern sport BJJ is a ridiculous oversight.

Even on the ground, pure grappling is different than grappling with striking. Then figure in if their big enough slamming you on concrete if you pull guard is also an option. Roll one time without mats on the wooden floor or with thin mats with less cushioning with one of these big guys, and add semi contact body punches and slaps to the face you might find it an enlightening experience.

 

[imarayda]

I have always been interested in the combat effectiveness of martial arts in realworld situations hence this thread.

Go back 15-20 years and the semi-delusional idolization of BJJ as the 'ultimate self defence system' (always a joke of an idea) vs all other styles, including Judo which I have a background in was still in full flow.
Thus to observe the gradual loss of combat effectiveness of the system as it becomes more focussed on sport grappling, and to hear eg Rickson criticise modern BJJ for its lack of self defence application compared to GJJ etc and hear others say only 30% of BJJ translates to mma etc...like another poster said it is a huge turnaround.

So naturally the question comes up again. How would a bigger, stronger untrained guy who is tough and with a good natural punch fare against a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who never trained against a punch in his life?
Answers so far have been interesting and when a style has promoted itself as the be all end all of MA for that long the debate over its applicability now is warranted.

yeah I remember your "guard is unrealistic for self defense cuz of ball grabbing" thread.

 

[empsim]

It depends on the individual in a real fight alot more. If you add strikes there are no doubt many BJJ 6 month whitebelts who would actually beat up BJJ blackbelts

unless there is a huge difference in size & athleticism, no way....

 

[lechien]

I think this is a great thread to promote Gracie jiu jitsu .

Looks like sport bjj is getting hammered so to write.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

Taking down your friends, bagboys etc in playfighting is not the same as a bigger stronger guy actively resisting while trying to punch you for real.



Your doubts are justified, train some Judo and get your takedown and throwing skills.

As many of us long suspected, the combat effectiveness of sport BJJ even at blackbelt level has becone questionable. Just assuming a determined untrained guy who is strong will simply 'fall over' if you hug him and try to wheelbarrow is a foolish assumption. Lets say our untrained dude played some football. His takedown defence will likely be too much for even an experienced pure BJJ guy, and an ass kicking may well be the result.

I have no doubt that an original GJJ blackbelt will kick the ass of even a stronger, bigger untrained dude ( within reasonable limits of size difference) 90% of the time in a fight.
But they trained with strikes and more takedowns with a self defence orientation.
For a modern sport BJJ blackbelt who has very limited takedown abilities and never faced a punch before, fighting a tough larger stronger guy who can hit hard (which many untrained guys can), might be as much as a 50-50 fight depending on the variables and size difference.

I would not ask the question of original GJJ, and there is no way in hell a GJJ blackbelt gets his ass beat by an untrained dude the majority of the time, and definately not by some now fucking famous loss prevention guy.

For sport BJJ the way they train now, the odds plummet and it is very feasable a sport BJJ blackbelt (especially if he is not a very big guy) may very well get his ass beat by a large strong untrained guy who can hit.
Given the original UFCs were started to promote BJJ as the 'ultimate fighting style', not to mention trashing and ridiculing just about every other style under the sun for the better part of 20 years, the turnaround and loss of combat effectiveness has to be one of the greatest ironies in modern martial arts.

Okay, so our "untrained" opponent so far is big, strong, athletic, has a natural punch, has played football and knows takedown defense.
Meanwhile our bjj Black belt in this scenario doesnt know how to shoot a double leg (even though it is literally part of the fundamental curriculum of many schools), will fold from one strike and will lose on the ground to a 6 month white belt if there is strikes involved.
Did I miss anything? Is the untrained guy a former D1 wrestler and has a gun? Is the bjj Black belt allergic to milk?

 

[TheMaster]

Okay, so our "untrained" opponent so far is big, strong, athletic, has a natural punch, has played football and knows takedown defense.
Meanwhile our bjj Black belt in this scenario doesnt know how to shoot a double leg (even though it is literally part of the fundamental curriculum of many schools), will fold from one strike and will lose on the ground to a 6 month white belt if there is strikes involved.
Did I miss anything? Is the untrained guy a former D1 wrestler and has a gun? Is the bjj Black belt allergic to milk?

Well, rumor has it the loss prevention guy had done the elite Walmart restraints and subduing training credits course, learned some effective stuff he used to overcome our sport BJJ blackbelt.

 

[TroldeAnsigt]

Well, rumor has it the loss prevention guy had done the elite Walmart restraints and subduing training credits course, learned sone effective stuff he used to overcome our BJJ blackbelt.

So because one video exists where a bjj Black belt gets subdued it means BJJ is worthless?
Should he have done judo instead, so he could have harai goshi'd 5 guys in a row without breaking a sweat like your other thread?
I dont understand why you disqualify bjj as sport nonsense, when judo has become an olympic sport at this point, even banning leg grabbing.

Edit: I just saw the video in question and it's literally 2 guys bear hugging from behind of the bjj Black belt. What is anyone supposed to do in this scenario, except not being there in the first place? No martial art will save you from multiple attackers all of the time.

 

[TheMaster]

So because one video exists where a bjj Black belt gets subdued it means BJJ is worthless?
Should he have done judo instead, so he could have harai goshi'd 5 guys in a row without breaking a sweat like your other thread?
I dont understand why you disqualify bjj as sport nonsense, when judo has become an olympic sport at this point, even banning leg grabbing.

Edit: I just saw the video in question and it's literally 2 guys bear hugging from behind of the bjj Black belt. What is anyone supposed to do in this scenario, except not being there in the first place? No martial art will save you from multiple attackers all of the time.

Not sure what video your refering to, the Walmart video is just some random loss prevention guy restraining a member of the public as an example.

If you read the thread the story comes from a poster here who gave his account of his high level BJJ blackbelt instructor being confronted by some loss prevention guy after trying to shoplift, going for a heelhook and getting his ass beatdown by the loss prevention guy.
Does not surprise me otherwise I wouldnt have created the thread to begin with but good we have some realworld examples.

In any case, the flaws in modern sport BJJ are plain enough.
You have the 'evolution' of sport BJJ where the applicability for self defence is far lower than the original GJJ yet still living off the rep of its predecesor.

 

[Kingbedlam]

I think this is a great thread to promote Gracie jiu jitsu .

Looks like sport bjj is getting hammered so to write.

What if "The Master" is secretly a Rickson Gracie Black Belt?

 

[Evenflow80]

Yes, getting a huge strong young guy on the ground is not going to be easy, especially if hes punching you. Not training takedowns in modern sport BJJ is a ridiculous oversight.

Even on the ground, pure grappling is different than grappling with striking. Then figure in if their big enough slamming you on concrete if you pull guard is also an option. Roll one time without mats on the wooden floor or with thin mats with less cushioning with one of these big guys, and add semi contact body punches and slaps to the face you might find it an enlightening experience.

I mean.... kind of agree? But not really?

At this point I have to ask the old and tired questions : do you train BJJ? Because I used to think EXACTLY that (and made countless topics on this very forum questioning BJJ in a real fight), up until around the time I passed two year mark of training and got my blue belt. Its at that point when I realized that I, a 36 year old former couch potato and exhausted father of 2, has zero issues completely wrapping up and immobilizing brand new guys that walk in that are way bigger, stronger, and younger than me.

I dont pull guard on them, I just sweep, mount, side control, or any other form of control that completely immobilizes their arms and head and body. They struggle and squirm but all they manage to do is burn themselves out.

Now where exactly in that 1.5 seconds it took for me to sweep them and immobalize them would they have had the world-class boxing skills to KO me or even touch me at all? In contrast to your gross underestimation of BJJ, I actually think you are WAY overestimating the average person's ability to throw a proper punch that does any damage at all.

It takes, literally, a split second to sweep someone into an inferior position. BUT herein lies my problem that I STILL question : we start rolls sitting down, in a real fight, how the hell will I get it to the ground?? THAT is where I am extremely deficient. In that case, I CAN easily get kneed or punched or KO right in the face, even against a clueless, flailing average joe.

And again, if you look at my post history you will see a TON of my posts and threads questioning the effectivness of BJJ in a real fight. This is not hubris or over confidence or anything like that, its just my simple, basic, clear as crystal observation from being on the mats day in and day out, against a vastly varied group of opponents of all shapes, ages, and sizes.

 

[DatCutman]

At this point I have to ask the old and tired questions : do you train BJJ?

The Master trains Wing Chun, and "has a background" (though I've found no listed rank) in Judo. Luckily Judo ranks are easily verifiable.

And again, if you look at my post history you will see a TON of my posts and threads questioning the effectivness of BJJ in a real fight. This is not hubris or over confidence or anything like that, its just my simple, basic, clear as crystal observation from being on the mats day in and day out, against a vastly varied group of opponents of all shapes, ages, and sizes.

Have you considered going to an MMA class and finding out?

To use your experience, being in BJJ and taking on new comers long enough taught you that you can control them at a certain point. Now you're unsure of how you'd fare against strikes during the TD/other phases. Training for a year or so in an MMA gym will give you that same level of self-awareness with regards to newbies.